Today's guest is a world leading expert in the art of human behavior. So many people view the world as like Harry Potter, where they think there's some magic script out there where I'm just gonna have this little spell, and it's gonna make somebody's behavior change. But this is as close as it gets right here. Serving twenty years in the US Navy, he's trained Secret Service and military leaders on behavior profiling, interrogation, and psychological warfare. Men will kind of do this behavior of covering their genitals during three key periods.

That's feeling vulnerable, feeling threatened, or feeling insecure. And women, instead of covering the crotch, will usually put an arm across their abdomen. They'll cover the uterus. Today, he's revealing his secrets, educating millions online and working directly with CEOs and FBI agents to navigate the science of influence. Could you hypnotize me to murder someone?

Absolutely. And how long would that take? Forty minutes. In this episode, we'll dive into the strategy he uses to control any conversation, how government elites manipulate the masses, and the hidden cues that can reveal exactly what someone is thinking. Chase Hughes.

Welcome to the Jack Neil podcast. Hey, Jack. Yeah. So since we've just met each other and had a few minutes, I have a notepad here. And since you're a behavior expert, I was wondering if you could maybe write a few predictions about me just from interacting with me briefly in the past few minutes.

What if I write down three of your biggest insecurities? That's a good one. And you don't have to read them on camera. You just gotta say if they're accurate or not. Okay.

And we'll we'll open it at the end. For the record, we have spoken for approximately fifteen minutes. Alright. There's number one. Number two, give me specific and I'll give you, give me a situation that you're in and I'll give you an insecurity in that situation.

Car. For the third one I'll write down the way that I know already that you used to escape from these first two. Yeah. Looking for that? No one's ever done this.

Alright. And I'll sign it. We could just put that right there. Awesome. So, yeah, Chase has just made three predictions about my insecurities, and, one was how I deal with those insecurities.

And you haven't really asked me many questions, to be able to know that, so I'll be interested to see at the end of the podcast, how that turns out. Just so you know, just us talking right now, there's a lot that you can see on human beings, and we can dig into that if you want to. I could tell you the methods, that are apparent on most people. What can you tell about a person just by looking at their face? Quite a bit.

So, we spend most of our time in conversations looking at people's faces, right? So that's where we always want to start teaching any kind of behavior reading or body language behavior profiling. The first thing that you you want to notice about a person's face is what are the lines that are etched into their face. If you see somebody, and this happens by the age of like 18, 19, so it's not like lines from aging, this is lines from expression. So if someone's smiling all the time, I mean, I guarantee you've met people before, you'll see these little crow's feet from a natural smile that are kind of etched because they live that life and they're kind of happy all the time.

If somebody's angry all the time, you're gonna see these two little muscles right here pulling together. This is called the glabella. You're gonna see kind of an etching right there. If somebody's really social, you're gonna see more lines on the forehead develop because this our forehead is our social billboard, and that's how we communicate emotion. So people are less likely to trust someone just instinctively if their forehead is covered up, like your hair.

But, this is how we communicate, like I enjoy your presence, hello, good morning. If you raise your eyebrows when you talk to a person, and you could try this as an experiment today, you're going in an airport here in a couple hours. If you just raise your eyebrows when you say hello, 90% of people will reflect back the eyebrow raise without knowing that they even did it. So instinctively programmed into human beings. So you can see people who are naturally more social from the forehead, more enjoyment, happiness driven from the crow's feet in the corner of the eyes.

You can see anger right here, but one of the most profound things that I ever discovered was if you make a skeptical facial expression, the first thing it does is it raises your cheeks and compresses your lower eyelid. Like, give it a shot really quick. Like, somebody's feeding you bullshit. It raises this up and kind of wrinkles the skin right here. So, I thought if someone's spending a lifetime, like, thinking they're getting lied to or they're really skeptical, that's gonna etch onto the face.

So, I started experimenting with it, and I thought, this, there's probably 20% effectiveness, but it's more like a hundred. And then I gave this information to two guys who are comedy hypnotists, and maybe you've seen like a show or something, but you know they go on stage and bring people up and make them do crazy shit and all that. And they have tested it with like between five to 10,000 people, and they said it's a %. The people who wind up staying on stage and being highly suggestible have really smooth lower eyelids. Like I'm extremely suggestible to hypnosis and all that stuff.

Look, see my eyelids are totally smooth right there. You have somebody, your age, you still have like lower level of suggestibility, so that would be factor two in the paper that we put together to write up on this. And that one, we're still kind of figuring out, but so far, it's between 90 and a % accurate. Like, the more suggestible someone is, the smoother their lower eyelids are gonna be. And keep in mind, this this is not some published science.

I haven't done any research, well, scientific research on it, but it's anecdotal and I've seen so much proof, thousands and thousands of repetitions. Is that something I have? You have what would be called an LEF, lower eyelid factor two, which means you're mildly suggestible. So you have slight wrinkling there from kind of that expression over time. Interesting.

So the next thing is and the most important thing that you can spot, and this is for anybody, if you're pitching, if you're negotiating, you can see it on a Zoom call, is watching how often someone blinks, and this is one of the most powerful superpowers that you could you could ever have. So we call this blink rate, and this is like how many times per minute a person is blinking, and the average blink rate is between like fifteen and seventeen in a conversation for humans. If your blink rate starts going up, you're seeing stress in a person. So if we're in a conversation, let's say you're pitching a company or something, and somebody asks you about your financial projections and your blink rate starts going through the roof as you're talking about all this money, that's a high stress response, and that could be deceptive. But keep in mind, there's no behavior in human beings for deception.

None. What we're looking for is a change or stress most of the time. So, if I watch a person's blink rate go up, what I really want to understand is what's the context? What is what was just mentioned or talked about that that is making this change happen? So in a high stress scenario, you can see blink rate above 80 per minute, and in a low blink rate scenario, that's where we have focus.

So if someone's genuinely interested in a conversation, you'll see their blink rate drop almost to three to four per minute, which is a massive difference from four per minute to 80 per minute. And you can spot it from, like, 20 yards away. So it's it's so easy to see stress and focus on a person. So the last time you were really focused on, like, a movie that was really great, your blank rate was probably three or four, and the last time you were maybe doing something stressful, like taking a math exam or doing something in school that stressed you out, your blinker is probably 70 or 80. The cool thing is we're almost never aware of how often we're blinking, So it's so outside of our conscious awareness that we don't keep it under natural control all the time, and it's hard to control.

So I can look at any conversation, like, if you look across an airport or a restaurant at two people talking, you can see who's more relaxed than the other person right away, and that's just looking at the eyes. So we're just looking at face. This is not even the rest of the body. So now we can see not just he has a high blink rate or a low blink rate. What we're really wanting to look for if I'm teaching you to do this as a trial consultant or, you're about to go select a jury or help a lawyer select a jury.

You want to look for change. You don't want to look for, oh, it's high. Oh, it's low. What I'm in the business of is spotting changes. So this person behaved this way a few minutes ago, and it just shifted to something else.

So if if I'm doing public speaking, I'm speaking on stage a lot and stuff like that. I'm making eye contact with people that are out in the crowd, the people that are sitting out there in the audience, and as I'm doing that I'm looking at eyeballs so I can average the entire room's blink rate. So my job as a public speaker is to keep low blink rate as possible. That means focus is happening. So I'm looking out around the crowd, and I see blink rates starting to go up.

I'm seeing people blink more often. I know instantly that I'm losing attention. They're getting stressed out, they're thinking about lunch, so I'll raise my voice up higher, I'll walk to the other side of the stage, I'll clap my hands really loud, or change the subject, and automatically I start seeing blink rate go back down again, because I've regenerated focus. And you can spot that in any conversation and think about like if you want to ask someone a question about something that should not cause them stress, but you're seeing that blink rate goes up, that's a big deal. You're seeing it change to this high blink rate.

So we teach this in jury selection and all that kind of stuff, but you don't have to count. And that's where the stresses a lot of people out. Like, I'm sitting here counting how how often somebody's blinking. You practice just looking how often someone's blinking and saying, that that looks pretty normal, that looks pretty slow, that looks pretty fast. So your job after that is is it increasing or decreasing?

And if you wanna persuade someone, you wanna influence someone, your goal is to get them to blink less and less often. That means that they're gen you're generating more and more focus in them subconsciously. That make sense? And the second thing is, shutter speed, and the shutter speed is the speed of the eyelid closing and then opening back up again. So, we see an increase in shutter speed with fear, and we see a decrease in shutter speed with comfort, But when somebody is fully comfortable, let's say we start a conversation, and all of a sudden I start talking about, unpaid bills, and I see someone's shutter speed increase, and their blink rate starts going up.

I know that that is a really hot topic for that person. I can't read their mind, but I know that I'm seeing a reaction based off of subject matter. Does that make sense? So with the face, like, just a couple of the things that you need to be on the lookout for, especially if you're dealing in business, in negotiations, women going out on dates with, like, manipulative dudes and they need to spot it away sooner, so they don't get, like, sucked into some horrible vortex, is lip compression. And this one is really easy to spot and it's a very universal thing across all cultures.

Lip compression is when someone squeezes their lips together, you'll see like like that, and it usually means, almost all the time, withheld opinions. So, like, if we're talking and you're like, Chase, how do you like the new thing that you that you just bought? I'm like, Oh, it's great. So you're seeing somebody withhold some kind of opinion, not deception, it's not lying per se, it's obviously based on the context, but it's really important to be able to say, oh, there's something being held back. It doesn't mean you need to dig it out or anything, but it's good as a data point to know that there's something here.

If I'm in sales and I see lip compression, I know what I'm just not gonna talk about that shit anymore. I'm not gonna bring that that topic up anymore. If I'm in, an interrogation, I know I may need to ask more questions about that thing, but it's very powerful to notice if you see when the topic's being brought up, someone's listening and they do this lip compression behavior, it's most often withheld opinions or something being withheld emotion, and the other variation of this is lip retraction, and this is when the lip goes past the barrier of the teeth. So when you see the lip go like, into the mouth, or you see a finger go into the mouth, something passes the barrier of the teeth, it's a need for reassurance most of the time. So, and you'll see that, like, I'll be calling someone up on stage or I'll do, some kind of thing where I'm talking to a person, and you'll see them do some kind of thing where something's going into their mouth.

I'll right away, I know that that person needs some kind of reassurance, and it is so powerful. It could it could drastically change how you react to people and how you communicate to people. It can make you a much better communicator. As you start seeing blink rate go up, I know I'm gonna change the conversation to something because I I know you're being stressed out. If I bring something up, I see lip compression, I know that there may be something there or I need to move off of this topic, or if I'm in an interrogation, I need to dig in this topic.

So that's just just looking at the face, those are just a few things that we can start looking for. What else do you suspect, you can tell but might not be 100% certain? You'd mentioned the eye thing wasn't proven through data, but is there anything else, like, I've heard a lot of people talk about physiognomy. Yeah. Like, being able to tell based on, like, jaw structure and, like, nose structure, like, tilt of eyes, like, that type of stuff.

Is that all bullshit? Or I think most of it's been discredited and disproven. And I think if it was if it was even proven to be 20% reliable, I would be, like, on I'd be on board. I'd say, let's let's learn it and and add that to my stack of data. Because when I'm looking at a person, I'm not looking for one thing, I'm looking for a cluster of different things that will tell me one piece of information.

Does that make sense? Yeah. So physiognomy started back, '17, I think in the late seventeen hundreds, and they would make these models of the human head, and based on where the lumps are on the skull, they would say, oh, this is a high intelligence and this is a low intelligence. And then they went into facial shapes and structures and, I think 99% of that stuff has been discredited, completely discredited. But I will I will say as a caveat, if I want to like simulate, I want to do research on high stakes intelligence interrogations where we have like a detainee and interrogator and I give a couple of college kids a lunch voucher to come up here and volunteer for an experiment and then they pronounce like, oh, we did research on interrogation.

There is nothing, nothing that a college can simulate that would be even remotely close to an intelligence interrogation scenario where their person's sleep deprived, they're facing the death penalty if they give out information. You can't replicate a lot of human behavior in some college basement somewhere doing an experiment. So it's very hard to quantify. And I think a lot of people make a terrible mistake of thinking that human behavior is a science and not just and not an art form because every human being is a little bit different. Everybody's got different background and different culture and different bullshit from their childhood kind of still kind of running the little programs and stuff in the background.

So, treating it like it's geometry where we can just accurately predict everything and like relying solely on one psychology textbook, and that's the source, that's ground truth about every human being in the world. I think that that is a mistake. But I do think it is a blend of art and science. And I think what I do when it comes to behavior profiling is a lot like, being a meteorologist. I have all these little data points, so this is likely what's gonna happen.

So we kinda we deal in likelihood instead of like this is the pronounced actual thing. What's the easiest way to make someone feel comfortable around you? Man, that's fantastic. One of the fastest ways that a person gets to feel comfortable, there's a few different ways. Number one is that they see you as predictable and reliable, and so that starts with, like, this person, a, is not a threat.

So not being a threat means I'm not facing a person head on. Like the way you and I are facing right now is non adversarial. Our brains are kind of wired to be a little bit more competitive when people are sitting directly facing head on to each other. This is why, in the bars back in even in the Old West they knew this. They didn't know really why, but they knew that I'm going to sit a bunch of dudes at a bar who are getting drunk.

For them to be able to talk to each other, they have to see each other. So, let's put up a huge mirror on the back of the bar where they can look at each other without facing each other. So, it lowered the likelihood of fights taking place. So, that would be number one. It's like, am I in some kind of non verbal position that creates some kind of adversarial thought process in their mammalian part of their brain.

Is that specific to men though? Or Oh no, no. Like if you, women have the exact same fight or flight response. So, like, when another human, a woman or a man comes up and, like, facing directly onto that person, it triggers our brain to say, this might be a conflict or confrontation. This might be something I have to deal with physically.

So let me just explain, like, our brain has not changed in about two hundred thousand years, and we do not have a part of the brain dedicated, hierarchical structure of the brain dedicated to language. None. This is why, like, it takes babies years to start talking and speaking. We have to learn that. But a baby can walk, a baby can learn the sign language, like milk and I want more, and we can do all of that because we have hierarchical structures for those things, but we do not for language.

Language is relatively new to our species. So we rely on a lot of nonverbal communication, but we read other people at this gut level. Or if it's a woman, it would be reading people with, like, some intuition or women's intuition is way better than men's, in my opinion. But we read these micro movements first, and the mammalian brain is what's truly in charge of a human being. So if I'm thinking I need to make someone comfortable, what most people would think is, what are the words I need to say?

And language is always above and beyond the least important thing, in persuasion and influence. Least important. It's the last part of our brain that evolved, so it's the least important thing. So if you think of any sales team in the world, and I'm sure you've dealt with a lot of dudes who do like online sales, they have a sales team, like our mutual friend Marcel has his own sales team. One of the biggest mistakes I've seen in since I've retired from the military and now I train a lot of sales teams around the country is they want a better sales script.

That's it. So I show up and they're like, oh, we need different words. And I say, if you paid me $10,000,000 and I developed the best sales script on planet Earth in the history of humankind, and gave it to one of your salespeople that has social anxiety, it's the crappiest sales script in the world, and you're gonna blame it on the script. I can give you every single word to say, but if you're not communicating the right signals non verbally, those words are meaningless. They're they have no effect.

So, it's so important that we understand my ability to make another person comfortable is nonverbal, 90% nonverbal. So, it's how am I approaching that person. So, making someone comfortable and making someone trust you are about the same thing, and then we get into authority. Are you an authority figure? So, you can be dominant, but not domineering.

You could be in control, but not controlling. But you do this all non verbally. Are you in charge of yourself? Do you have high self confidence? Do you, present a non threatening, body language and demeanor?

And one of the the best, most powerful ways to start communicating that is by communicating with your palms open, and this is proven. There's even a TED talk about it by a good friend of mine named Mark Bowden, and, he's on the behavior panel YouTube channel with us. We cover a lot of true crime body language breakdowns and stuff. If you watch this TED talk, it's fascinating, but as a as a quick post it note summary of what this means is, while you're speaking, if you're speaking with your arms and hands at naval height, so like even with your belly button and your palms open when you're making these important points in what you're saying, people are like 10 x more likely to believe you and trust you and trust in what you say just by having these open palms, and you can demonstrate it so quickly and so easily. Like even in a seated position, if I'm sitting here like this and I'm covering my genitals right now, which is a fear response when people lie or when they're scared or when they're really fearful about what they're saying or what they're experiencing, right, and I say, Jack, you can trust me.

It feels weird. So if I cover my abdomen, because we don't have bones right here to protect organs. Right? So one of the things we do when we're fearful is put bones where there aren't any bones. So we'll kind of cover this abdomen.

Women are more likely to do it, but I say, Jack, you can trust me, or if we're talking like this and I say, Jack, you can trust me. It it feels different in your brain, because we have this hardwiring to see this openness, this open nonverbal communication. It feels completely different, and Mark Bowden calls this the truth plane, where people are just way more likely to accept what you say or believe you, and in reality, making someone comfortable is about having confidence that's actually contagious. So when somebody has confidence that's artificial, it makes other people feel small. If your confidence is genuine and you're you're not faking confidence out of ego, that's what makes people small.

But if I'm truly confident, it should make other people confident. Even if they have social anxiety, even if they're stressed out, I have a calm demeanor and enough composure that my confidence I have enough that I can transfer to other people. If you talk about persuasion and influence, whether you're a cult recruiter or an interrogator or a parent, trying to raise a kid, you want your confidence to be contagious. Your number one goal is to transfer my level of confidence to that other person so they can make a decision. I want to increase their confidence.

So that's the number one thing is having confidence to the point where it's transferable to the other person. I wanted to touch on what you said a minute ago about the, like, crotch exposure, just because there was this interview, a few days ago with Trump and Zelensky, and people were commenting on the fact that, Trump was kind of covering his genitals and Zelensky was, like, sitting like this. So, like, what does that mean? Like, like, you're hiding something if you're covering your crotch or, like, what what's the kind of thing there? There's gonna be a lot of body language experts out there.

Somehow, I got voted the number one body language expert in the world on this, like, global gurus thing, and they stopped put they stopped that category. I think maybe a lot of the votes were my mom, going on there, but in reality, what a lot of these experts are going to say are, he did this, so this might mean this. But what you won't hear them say is talking about changes, which we already talked about. When did that happen? How long did it stay that way?

And when did it open back up again? So what was the moment that happened when the movement took place of that genital protection behavior? And there's probably a few still frames you could get where Zelensky is covering his abdomen, covering his crotch. There's you can get still shots to mean anything that you want them to mean. But what we really need to pay attention to is the change.

So I didn't I actually haven't watched it. It's just stressful, and I just choose not to watch anything negative or weird. I just don't expose my brain to it. But in any situation you can cherry pick little pieces of data until you turn on the job of I'm looking for changes to behavior, and that's the number one thing. So I would say that there's some people out there who will say, though Zelensky was confident, Trump was not.

Maybe the whole interview didn't look like that. I don't know. If the whole interview was like that and his hands were like covering his crotch the whole time, I would say there's some insecurity. Men will kind of do this behavior of covering their genitals and women during three key periods, that's feeling vulnerable, feeling threatened, or feeling insecure, those three. And women, instead of covering the crotch, will usually put an arm across their abdomen, and they'll cover the uterus and you'll see this that, I can't remember where this was this research was done, but, young girls going to college for the first time, so they're in this new environment, the first, like, eight to nine days, I think, of school, they would carry their books and stuff in front of their abdomen.

And the more socially comfortable they got with everybody, the books would be carried a little bit lower and lower and lower and then down at the side. And men are likely to do the same thing. So, we'll kind of pull our arms in when we're feeling those moments. But always think about the change, like when is it happening? So, the movement, there's so many body language experts out there that speak about body language like it's a still image.

And I've never understood that. Because of when I first started learning, I thought, oh, this is a I learned by looking at pictures in a book. I'm like, still image, still image. And I know what that means if I see it. I don't.

I need to look for the change to that behavior when someone moves to that behavior. So if if you see Trump covering his genitals the whole time, I would say there's a pretty good bet. There's vulnerable, threatened, or insecure. It's one of those three things. And you've been on a lot of podcast and and a lot of high stakes negotiations.

How do you get what you want out of an interaction? Okay. So, number one, I need to figure out what my desired outcome is. So I need to go in there with an outcome in mind, and a lot of people don't. And every conversation you should have an outcome.

I want this person to feel great. Could be an acceptable outcome. But right off the bat, you want to get them to start making identity agreements, and this is just kind of a little micro class of things that you can do. Identity agreements means that you get them to either verbally or in their own head say, I am the type of person who fill in the blank. So what I teach in sales and even in interrogations is if we start a conversation and I say, you know, Jack, there are so many podcasters out there who are just have this rigorous structure that they have to follow, and it's kind of nauseating to be on the podcast, so I'm glad I'm in here with you today.

I didn't say anything about you, but I got you to mentally agree that you are not one type of person. Do you see how quickly that starts to that can start compounding really quick? So if I walked in here like that, I could I might be able to get you to not pull out your iPad, to not do anything. Does that make sense so far? So, I've just said there's so many people who do X behavior, I'm glad that it's you and me here today.

I'm glad that you and I are talking. I'm getting you to agree that you are not that type of person. And imagine if I had come in here, and I'll just use you and me as an example if that's alright with you. Yeah, for sure. Imagine if I had like, when I came into the studio today, I was down in this little parking lot area, you were up this up the stairs, and as I was walking up the stairs, I said, dude, I was just watching your podcast.

It is so refreshing to see somebody who is a podcaster and can still do whatever I say. I can make sure that you'll probably do that or act that way on the show because I've I didn't get you to agree to an idea, I got you to agree to an identity. And identity is the strongest way to influence a human being, to get them to agree to who they are as a person. So, let's say I wanted you to be more open and vulnerable about yourself. So I walk I'm walking up these stairs, and I'm like, dude, I just finished watching your podcast, and, like, so many podcasters are so closed off, and just they push these barriers up, and they they try to fake their way through podcasts, so it's it's really rare to see somebody who's just genuinely open and authentic, so I really appreciate it.

I didn't say that that was you, but your head said it was you. But if I say you are this kind of person, and you and I give you these direct compliments, your brain feels like it's being influenced. Your brain feels like there's some manipulation going on. But if I take that out, I'm taking away your ability to really scrutinize what I'm saying because I'm just making a generalized statement. Even though I'm getting you to say, Yes, that is me.

Does that make sense? And another way, and this is just like the first beginning of a conversation, and let's say I said, you know, Jack, I just watched your podcast. I I gotta tell you, man, as a behavior guy, I'm wondering, like, how did you get this open and just completely raw and able to share all your feelings at your age? I think I was like 30 until I got that open with other people. And the moment that you start answering that question, you're agreeing to an identity verbally.

Now I've got you to verbally agree to an identity. And most of the time, like if you just memorize that one phrase, it's like you want a quick one liner, which I hate, these little scripts and stuff, but ask somebody, like, how did you get this open with other people? Have you always been this way, or is this something you had to work on? I know I had social anxiety, I had to work on it. So I'm curious about something and then I make an admission and it makes the admission look more honest if I touch my chest.

And you probably notice the feeling of like this looks a lot more genuine, my eyebrows going up, I'm kind of touching my chest, making an admission, and the moment that you start answering that, I'm nailing down what you're allowed to do with me in the future. So, I'm removing the possibility that you're gonna be more holding back. I'm not completely eliminating it, but I'm lessening that likelihood. So, every moment in a conversation is about crafting the likelihood of the behaviors that are going to follow. Yeah.

I I I'm really interested in the identity thing. I will say, like, researching you, the past couple weeks, I've like, that's been my biggest takeaway by far. Like, that seems to be the root of most conflicts between people. Like, essentially, if you have an opinion that I disagree with, it's more so I don't want to have the identity of the person that would agree with that opinion, and that's where we see, like, this, like, bifurcation of politics, like, between liberals and conservatives. It's more so that people want to identify with that side of the aisle more so than actually live out what that opinion looks like.

I guess what I wanna ask you about utilizing the identity or just in terms of getting what you want out of a conversation, say this podcast, for instance, I might have to, cut it a bit short in a couple hours because I have a flight to make. How would you kind of go about, if you really wanted to be on here for, like, five hours with me? Like, how would you steer the conversation in a way without, like, any sort of bribe or anything to make that happen? Yeah. So let's start from the me being in the parking lot like I was this morning.

So for reference, like, we're on the Second Floor of a building. There's an outdoor staircase. I'm standing out there, and you kind of came out and said, hey. And that was like, let let's start with that. So the moment I'm walking up the stairs, I say now say the exact same intro.

I'm saying, Jack, I just watched a couple of your podcast yesterday to get ready for this, and I was just on the on the way over here. I was watching this one with this other guy, and I gotta say, man, it's just there are so many podcast hosts out there who just rush and rush to get something over with, and it's it's kinda disgusting because it's like this mechanistic process where people just wanna churn out content or they've got shit to do so they end the podcast early and they do all these things. They don't really prioritize their guest, and you do. Like, it's amazing that I I I go on so many podcasts, and there's nobody that really prioritizes getting everything that they can from a guest, and I really appreciate that you do that. So it was framed as a compliment, but you've agreed that you are a certain type of person at this moment.

That would have at least got you fifteen more minutes. I'll see that. And that's just the beginning. And so right away that so I didn't get you to agree to an idea. I got you to agree that you're a certain type of person.

And this is in the first thirty seconds. Influencing someone long term is more is not just like, hey, let me just keep hacking away at this identity. There's ideas that come in there too, and what I did there is called a negative dissociation. So and this is part of the NCI, the system that I teach you government and and people all over the world. It's called NCI, neurocognitive intelligence.

And one of the methods in there is called negative dissociation. So I I don't want you to have a certain trait. And so all I'll do is talk negatively about a certain group of people and how they have this trait. Right? So let's let's say now we're inside.

I've already said that first thing to you. And then I say, like, you know, you've been doing podcasts a while. You've got a million subscribers now on, YouTube. And I'm just amazed at how many douchebags there are out there hosting podcasts nowadays. And I'm really excited to come here because every time I've sat with one of these people I've been on a lot of podcasts.

Every time I sit down with one of these people, it's like they have a clock ticking down, and they have to just pay attention to the clock, and it's almost like I'm sitting with a doctor who doesn't give a shit about me. So now I've given you a scenario that that your brain has automatically got a relation to. Right? So I've been putting a picture in your head, a negative one. And it's just really mechanistic.

And I've seen so many of your shows, and I've it's good to be with somebody who is willing to stick around and, like, get the full story when they need to do that. Now that's identity again. So, you could keep going down a hill. And if you keep doing it over and over using the same technique, it's gonna be very obvious. And it's gonna be like, oh, why is he why does he keep saying this shit?

So from identity, I want to go to expectancy. So if if you have confidence and you have authority, you can create expectancy. So priming is another. The identity and then priming. So priming is setting the stage every moment of a conversation.

We're getting the person's brain ready for the next thing that's gonna happen. And a lot of people are like, oh, I'm just gonna read the script, and then the sale's gonna happen. The sale happens like in starts at the first five seconds. Right? So the next one is priming.

I'm gonna start putting in small seeds of thoughts in your head and to to discuss this, like, to understand the concept of priming. They did, and I'm no expert on this study or anything. I'm gonna probably butcher this. They did this study where people were taking a word search puzzle, and in the group they put these words in the puzzle that were loosely related to old age: Florida, wrinkle, pain, retirement, all of this, like, there's probably 10 or 15 words in there. I can't remember them all.

But just after taking just after being exposed to those words for a few minutes, the speed that they exited the testing room and walked down the hallway was reduced by, like, somewhere near 40%. So they started walking slower just because they were exposed to these words, and if you have an outcome in mind, the number one thing you need to do is prime that person to think of that outcome. Does that make sense? So, we're none of these techniques work very well unless you have authority and you have confidence. So, when we're talking about these techniques, these are language, like we talked about, it's the least, least important thing.

And, so right after that, I would ask if you're on the clock, and then how flexible you are. And I would talk about time, and how time can be flexible. And I would I would mention how I changed my flight just a few days ago, and it was really easy, and it didn't really impact my trip very much. Just bringing these subjects up on a very regular basis. There's a ton of techniques we could talk about if we have, like, a specific scenario, anything or or interrogation if you want to, but there are so many things that go back to nonverbal behavior and authority that I would I feel like just talking about the linguistics, which we could all day long, we could go way into linguistics and how to use confusion and deliberately confuse somebody's brain and all of that kind of stuff, but the base of that pyramid, the base of whether or not I accomplish what I want to do is gonna be a result of do I have authority?

Do I have enough confidence and presence to get that thing done? And if you want, we can break down the linguistics or the authority. I'll let you choose where you want to go. Linguistics. Okay.

So let's talk about, how linguistics work in the brain. We don't have an evolutionary part of our brain for language. We have these two things in our brain called the Broca's area and the Wernicke's area where we kind of process language. When it comes to linguistics, the first thing that you want to be aware of is how we're directing that person's attention. So can I capture a person's focus and can I lead a person's focus?

If I'm speaking in a way that is not direct and doesn't capture focus, then I'm already losing persuasion. You could read all these cool scripts, all these cool books. If you don't have the social skills to speak well and and really captivate somebody's attention, you're not gonna do it. So, one of the most common that people learn when it comes to linguistics is these statements that are called, Milton statements or salad statements or whatever, but they're kind of presumptive, so a person can is a beginning of one of those. I can insert anything I want after that and help your brain to start picturing it and imagining it.

So if I'm communicating in a way that is vivid, then I'm painting pictures in your head, which means that the mammal part of your brain can understand it. If my words are not creating pictures in your head, and I'm not interesting enough, or I'm not generating enough focus, then I don't translate what I'm saying into the mammalian brain. So a person can, let's say, I want you to forget about the time, and you could just put that into a sentence, and I want I want to kind of start injecting these thoughts into your head earlier on without you knowing that it's happening. I would say some kind of phrase where I could inject that into a sentence, so a person can. So let's say I was, I walk in here, we're talking, I talk about you were asking me about the Joe Rogan podcast, and I was like, yeah, man, it's amazing how fast a person can completely lose track of time.

Or I could say, it's amazing how it's so easy to just completely forget about the time for a few hours. So what I did was I inserted a small pause before I told you what I wanted you to do, and you can ask me anything. So let's say I wanted you to extend the podcast to a few hours or cancel your flight or whatever, which we can't do because I've got an appointment a little bit later, but I wanna insert those phrases. And if I say completely forget about the time, let's say that that's what I want you to do, completely forget about the time. As I'm talking, I'm saying, like, may just name any random subject, and I'll show you exactly how you can weave it into any conversation, any subject you want.

Technology. Alright. And I was in Best Buy the other day looking at these laptops, and they're making so many of these advances, and they have so many things that you can look at. It's amazing how easy it is to completely lose track of time. Makes sense so far?

Mhmm. Okay. And now to get you to want to have the podcast with me longer, we'll we'll cover another technique and this and you can this is called embedded commands that a lot of you can look it up anywhere on the Internet. So that before we move to this next technique is the rules of this embedded command technique where you're hiding language inside of language is I'm gonna pause before and after, and the command itself, like what I'm injecting or hiding into my language has to be able to stand alone as a sentence. So, for example, I can't say it let's say I want you to I wanna get you to relax.

That's it. A lot of people would say, Yeah, it was a really completely relaxing journey. Completely relaxing is not a sentence. Completely relax is a sentence. It's a statement of telling someone to do something.

So, that's the difference. And, the biggest mistake most people make is that they don't pause and they're using ing words when they should be using direct commands. And ideally if if you get more advanced at this, you should be able to clip the sound bite of someone saying the hidden part and it should sound like they're speaking an independent sentence. That make sense? So it should be a command hidden within it.

And then, we get into, like, ambiguities. So let's dive into ambiguities and then gestures and how gestures can can play into this. So give me something you would want someone to feel like. Let's go into connection. Okay?

So give me any random scenario, and I will show you how we can inject language into that scenario using this phrase of, feeling connected. You go to Starbucks and order with your barista. Yeah. Okay. And what are we talking about?

Give me any topic and I'll show you how easy it is to weave into anything just on the fly. Like what new coffee they have at Starbucks. Okay. Yeah. So the first thing, I'll my time is limited with this barista.

So the first thing is I wanna establish her focus. So I'm gonna do one small thing, and I'm gonna say something like, you know, it's absolutely fascinating. And very covertly, I'm pointing at myself as I'm saying the word fascinating to start off the sentence to try to associate myself with the word fascinating, so I can just buy myself a tiny bit more focus so that she'll bite onto the next sentence. So when time is super limited, it's a lot more difficult. But, we're at Starbucks, we're talking about all the isn't it coffees that you said?

All the coffees? Yeah. So, there's so many coffees here to choose from, and I remember watching this documentary about these coffee makers, and it is incredible how much they take care of each other. It's a rare moment when somebody can feel completely connected to another person. So did you hear that piece?

Feel completely connected, And if you cut the audio out of what I just said, it sounds like I'm saying an independent sentence. On top of that, my hand, as I was saying the word feel completely connected, was going back and forth between you and I. This make sense so far? Yeah. I just I want to comment that it feels very hypnotic, and I've noticed that about your speech this whole time.

And I know you're trained in hypnotism, but spending time with Marcel is just I'm picking up on, like, I'm getting into trance just listening to you speak. Yeah. Have people commented about that? Yes, but most of most of the time it's people who have listened to these MP3s that I have, they're for free, to make your confidence better, to increase your, mental well-being and all of that kind of stuff. So they they're like going to sleep every night listening to my voice doing, like, very overt hypnosis, like, to get them to sleep.

And then I've noticed they come to, like, a training session or something with me in person. I've got a little mic on, there's speakers in the room, and I'll say just the word, like, sleep. Yeah. And I've I've almost felt it on that. I was hoping that you wouldn't do it.

And and, like, I've my first time I ever did, there was a guy who'd been listening to me for, like, nine months straight every time we went to bed, and I said that s word, and he just just fell out fell out of his chair. So I had to be really careful. So let's add on to this technique a little bit. So whatever we're talking about, we can talk about picking out carpet and how someone can feel completely connected. And I could be talking about an electrician coming to my house and fixing wires, and it's amazing when that connection finally happens when he's putting these wires together.

But I'm saying the words independently, and I'm saying them with this back and forth gesture as I'm talking about connection. But now I wanna say I wanna hide the sentence, feel completely connected now with me. And I'm gonna disguise that in speech. Have you ever heard this before? Mhmm.

It's pretty bizarre. But I'm gonna I'm gonna be ambiguous about where the period is and where the comma is in these sentences. So in essence, I'm gonna say the sentence like feel completely connected. Period. Now with me, when I start exploring things, but I'm gonna I'm gonna tie those together.

So give me another topic and I'll roll with it. Random toothbrush. Okay. I always use my toothbrush, and I because I remember this dentist I had when I was a kid. He was the only guy that really genuinely cared about me.

He was the most kind person, that I ever met, And it's so rare when you can feel completely connected. Now with me, the way I see it is we develop relationships differently, especially as kids, and then I'll just roll off on another sentence. But if you clipped out what I said, feel completely connected now with me. And I isolated that in my speech. Makes sense so far?

There was a thing back in the nineties where these guys would kind of come up with a lot of these ambiguities and stuff, and they are powerful, but they become powerful not because someone uses them in isolation. You're not going to just say, you're not going to sneak the phrase buy this Bugatti, like into a paragraph and somebody's magically going to go spend a bazillion dollars on a car. They have to be paired with confidence, authority, and leadership, and a true belief in what you're saying and self esteem and all that. If you use all these language techniques and you have crippling self doubt and all of this stuff, you have to work on that other stuff first. A lot of people get wrapped around these little language techniques because it gives you a placebo.

It's like, oh, I know a trick now. But they're not that effective unless you're using them in a really I would say a really confident way. So, to expand on the language aspect of this, so confidence is probably one of those things that's such a critical element. And if we could dip into confidence really quick, the number one mistake in my lifetime training these CEOs, the intelligence folks, all of these people to develop confidence. It has nothing to do with your standing, over anyone else.

It has nothing to do with other people. The moment that you make it about how it like, it how it deals with other people, it's not confidence anymore. It's hierarchy. And those are two different things. So people think about confidence and it's like, oh, I have to be more than other people.

The biggest mistake is comparing me to other people, and that's what I call hierarchical thinking, and the people make these mistakes because they view themselves as, well, if I'm confident, I need to be above this person or they're scanning the room to see who's in charge, who's subordinate. And what's truly powerful about this and this sounds like it's like a hippie bumper sticker, but are you willing to get to a point where you treat everybody the same? That you meet you go to meet a a business billionaire for a sales pitch or you're talking to your Uber driver and you're the exact same. You have the same level of confidence because you're never thinking in hierarchy and status. And as Americans, especially living in the West, we are programmed to see hierarchy and status, and the two main goals of advertising, number one is to make you compare yourself to other people, number two is to make you think, I am not enough.

So get that statement into your head, the identity statement of, I am not enough. So, we get programmed from such a young age with these commercials and advertising, and now it's social media, it's just insane. If you kind of back your way out of that hierarchical thinking and comparing yourself to other people, you have the most transformative experience when it comes to confidence, because confidence has nothing to do with anyone else. It's not about anybody else. It's about me.

It's about do I have confidence in this situation? And the fastest way that I've ever seen to develop confidence, and I have a free hypnosis on our website you can download that's you can listen to it every night. I have thousands of testimonials that has changed people's life. But the fastest way to develop confidence is to develop a comfort with the possibility of social injury. And that's just, am I willing to be embarrassed?

Am I willing to say something that's on my mind that might might cause some judgment? Someone's gonna judge me. So that fear of judgment is also kind of hierarchical thinking, like, they are gonna judge me, which will put put me down. So if your confidence is coming from how your environment is, then you're going to always need something that which is not confidence at all. At all.

So when we're talking about confidence, it's self confidence, not in not environment confidence, not Jack confidence. Jack doesn't help me to feel confident. But we become no longer dependent on the environment or who we're around or what happened. We just become comfortable with that injury. And the second element is I develop this this mindset, this world view of things are generally going to work out fine, things are probably going to be okay, and if I if I'm my genuine belief is and not just a thought that I have, not like a post it note I put on my bathroom mirror and read as an affirmation every day, but I developed this hardcore internal belief that things will work out pretty much okay.

Number two is this fundamental worldview shift of I'm okay to receiving social injury, and I'm not I'm never using hierarchy and status to look at the world ever again. It is such a drastic change, and you're it's exhausting living in the other reality where I'm deeply concerned with the environment and I need things to be perfect for me to feel confident or to feel okay with with talking or saying something that's on my mind or being vulnerable around another person. So does confidence come from competence? I don't think so at all. If you watch, what is that movie?

Catch Me If You Can. Have you seen it? I think so. I know what you're talking about. It's, Leo DiCaprio playing a guy, Frank Abagnale is his real name.

It's it's a true story. Where he, like, puts on this pilot outfit and starts flying free around the entire country. It's a fabulous movie and I don't know if you do like overlays when people are talking about stuff, but a couple of these scenes like he's walking with all these, flight attendants, then he pretends to be a doctor, like a surgeon. Then he pretends to be a lawyer. So he kind of assumes all these identities.

He has zero competence. Zero. But everyone believes him because he is so self assured. He's not looking to other people for his confidence. It's an internal thing.

And that's where the term con man came from. It's confidence. So their confidence was so high that it became contagious. So I believe it so much that you start to believe it. And that's Conman is kind of a bad bad way to compare these things and say that's where you need to be in life.

But you need to have the confidence where, like, this is not a big deal. No matter what's happening, it's not a big deal because your your world view is things are gonna be fine. Everything's gonna work out. I'm open to being socially injured. That's that's just part of living as a human being on this planet.

And define social injury. Social injury is judgment most of the time. Okay. Judgment. And the judgment, if I'm reliant on the outside world, causes shame.

And let me give you the third pathway of confidence here, because we're just throwing random shit around. Getting so forgiving of yourself and your own past that for anyone else looking at it, you would be delusional or crazy. Like, unlimited self forgiveness. And this sounds like some self help bullshit, But it's just like, I don't care what anyone thinks about anything that I've ever done. I'm so self forgiving that everything is forgiven that I've done, and I don't accept any judgment from anybody else.

I'm radically, delusionally forgiving about everything that I've ever done, which kind of just helps to delete what keeps most people back, and that's shame. So I'm hiding shame. I'm hiding guilt, and I'm also concealing this fear of I might get judged by somebody. And opening that up and just it sounds crazy, but, like, we're training, like, Jason Bourne type of dudes, and the best way that we can train them is, like, getting them to live with, like, an open heart and just wide open, where I'm open to getting that social injury. So if I can if I have that much confidence, then these little language techniques and stuff that we're talking about are 10 times more powerful.

So a couple more techniques, if you wanna go back to them, are these gestures that I was talking about. Yeah. So if I want something between you and I, like, I say the word connection or I say the word, I'm talking to somebody that I want to date, I might say the word attraction and go like this back and forth between us two. I don't know if my hand's in the camera or not, but I'm I want to use my gestures on purpose instead of on accident. Is that maybe they have a 5% effect on how someone perceives something, but it's an effect.

There's some kind of effect going on. And if I say something and I want it to be associated with me, and I'm really trying to generate a lot of your focus, I would say like, you know, it was just seeing so many of these things, it's just really fascinating when you get to the point where you discover something new. And just pointing at myself saying, fascinating. And so think of like the words that you would want to say if you wanted to kind of control another human being or like get to an outcome. Yeah.

So let's go back to your example of of me wanting you to, what was it, like extend extend the podcast out for five hours. Right? Let's say we're standing out there in the green room and we're getting ready to kinda come in here and record. And I said, Jack, you know, it's fascinating. It's amazing, like, so many people I was working with, I was at this doctor's office the other day getting this brain scan done here while I'm in LA, and it is just awesome that he was willing to just stop and spend extra time with me doing these brain scans.

And I would say that so I'm saying spend extra time with me, and I'm pausing before and I'm pausing afterwards to where if you clipped it out audio, that would be its own statement. It's fascinating. It's kind of a cool placebo, but it's only a placebo of skill unless the confidence is there and you can back all that stuff up. And there's so much you can do with language, but it's only as good as how you're influencing the mammalian brain. So, if I have zero like imagine if a third grader came up to you and said that, or it would have no impact on you.

If a third grader came up to you and insulted you, it would have no impact. So there needs to be authority present, and authority not over others, but authority over self. Like, I'm in control, I'm not controlling. And, you know, we you've probably seen me go through the five factors of authority and what makes authority possible, but we've proven in so many experiments that authority matters more than any possible word that you will ever say in your lifetime, like the Milgram experiment, which is, famous. People got talked into killing another person, or they thought they did, in in under an hour.

And more and more we're discovering is I need to be more Cesar Millan and less Tony Robbins. I need to think about controlling that mammalian brain, and because that's what really makes the decisions. If somebody thinks, oh, well, the human the neocortex is more advanced so it makes more decisions, no, it's not. Like, you you can't hold your breath until you die. Your your mammalian brain is gonna take over and knock your ass out or gonna make you just open your mouth and breathe again.

So that is the brain that makes a lot of our decisions from an emotional perspective, and that's where you establish someone's focus. You have authority, and you say something that triggers this tribal response and emotion. Those are the four things that influence mammals, focus, authority, tribe, and emotion. Those four things. On those four things, what are some habits that make people dislike you?

From a mammalian perspective or human? I guess human. Yeah. I think not being interested. So most people focus too much on being interesting instead of being interested.

And that is the number one recipe. The second way that people will get into a point of not being liked by other people is I need to be on top. So, you'll say, oh, I went to this I went on this great vacation to, Disney World. I was like, oh, great. Yeah.

We just went to Rome, actually. And, we toured the entire Vatican, got this backstage pass to the Vatican, which I never have, but and it's not I'm not saying, like, you don't one up people, obviously everyone should, I hope, know that. But what I'm saying is, if I'm doing this, subconsciously, every time this person wants to be seen as important or significant or to gain some kind of social acceptance, I'm shutting them down. And the three biggest social needs that people have are significance, I need to feel significance, I need to be accepted, and I need some kind of approval. Like, I need to be told I'm doing a good job or some kind of recognition.

The moment that we see somebody exhibiting like I see this person and they say I'm a CEO, I've got 45 employees, we've made $10,000,000 last month and all of that, I know for a fact that they thrive on significance. So the moment that I say, oh, I have I just made $15,000,000 last month and I did all this, I'm taking away the exact thing that they need from other people in social interactions. And it it makes us feel good, but we're not really doing that for the other person. And when you get to understand, am I dealing with a person that is significance driven, acceptance driven, or approval? And the moment I start taking that away, I'm taking away not just how they feel, I'm taking away neuropeptides because they get dopamine and other neuropeptides from that feeling.

So it's like a person knocking on a drug dealer's door, and the drug dealer's like, no, go somewhere else. So that's kind of what it is because we are, there are chemicals and we're dealing in a in a at a chemical level. This person needs to be validated and made to feel significant, made to feel like they're a part of a group, made to feel like they have permission to do something, made, like, complimented on and and told that they did a great job. And and just as a quick example, the acceptance people are always gonna be talking about groups and tribes. They'll use pronouns like we way more often in their speech and their language.

And the approval people are always gonna be saying things to get you to kind of tell them that they're okay, tell them they're doing a good job. They might say, oh, I'm going on, this podcast tomorrow and I always suck. Every time I go on a podcast, I always suck and people just don't like it. Because then what you say, oh, no, Jack. It's okay.

You did a great job last time. That, that last podcast you did get 55,000 likes on the video, and most of the comments were really positive. So that would be like on the approval side. So the biggest mistake that people make is not getting to a place where I understand what this person's social needs are, and now I understand how to give them those social needs. So if I wanna persuade a person and I know they're driven by significance, I say, you know what?

Jackets, you make a tremendous difference around here, and I've met your team, and everyone I've met that works with you really looks up to you and respects you. That that would do work wonders for a person that has that social need because I just I just say a few words and keep in mind that so many people view the world as like Harry Potter where they think there's some magic script out there where I'm just gonna have this little spell and it's gonna make somebody's behavior change. But this is as close as it gets right here. Understanding precise human needs and what they seek out in social interactions, and it's gonna be different for everybody. And there's six needs that I typically teach.

It's not just the significance, approval, acceptance. We also teach pity, that some people are seeking pity, need to be seen as intelligent, and a need to be seen as powerful or strong. And you'll see these people that are more posturing and all that kind of stuff. And if you understand how to complement those needs and how to give them the neuro they're not looking for you to say words. They're looking for neuropeptides.

Words are just the avenue to get the chemicals that they need from social interaction. All we're doing by understanding what needs this person has is understanding how to trigger those chemical pathways in a person's brain. How do you deal with people that just have these super high egos that speak about all their great accomplishments, But when you compliment them, they almost reject it and kind of, like, don't want to hear compliments, but they also don't want you to, like, add on to their compliment. That seems to be, like, fairly common thing I've noticed with hyper successful guys. I think there's a lot of people that have the egos around all of their accomplishments.

They want to appear humble, but they may not be humble. And I think the best way to deal with that is to ask them that exact piece of advice. So give me an example of a person that, says something like, oh, I went to Oxford or something like that. I guess, like, I have an IQ of 180. Wow.

So you having an IQ this high, do you mind I just want to ask you a question really quick because I've been struggling with this for a while. You kind of probably see conversations in different levels than most people do, and notice that I'm not looking at you while I'm asking this question. So I'm not putting social pressure on you. I'm looking away. You probably see a lot of these conversations in, like, different levels than most people, and I've been struggling with, and then you just asked exactly what you asked me, and when they give you advice, they're agreeing not to be that person.

I get it, so it goes back to the original thing of you're giving them the identity of not that person. Yes. Okay. But you're asking their advice, and so the moment that they start, telling you something that they're proud of, these little accomplishment ego is what I call that, accomplishment driven ego, they you take exactly what they say, and you wanna do this as early as possible in that interaction. So the moment give me another one that you might hear from somebody.

I just left with seven women this week. Okay. That's a lot. And I've got to I've got to ask you one question, because I mean to sleep with that many women, you've got to have some social skills that most people don't have, but I borrow your advice for like thirty seconds. And then right away I'm going to say, alright, so every once in a while I'll have these people, and I I don't know how to say it, but they have this and then I'll go right into that exact same question.

They have this ego, and they wanna they won't take compliments and all of this stuff. How do I deal with these people? You act you identify that person, they start doing doing these things, you use what they say about themselves to say, this is why you're perfect to answer this question. And the moment because they're gonna give you advice. It might be shitty.

It's gonna be horrible advice. But they're making that subconscious agreement that I am not that person. The moment they give you advice, they're saying, here's how to deal with those people, and it becomes not them. You're not permanently changing their identity. Once they go to another party or something the same night, they're gonna go back to being ego driven.

But you're changing the results you're gonna get in that situation, and maybe over time you're changing the results they're gonna get with you. They'll be a different person with you. That's fascinating. On the habits of people, making people dislike you, is there anything, like, instantaneous, like, body language wise that you think of? Direct facing.

So, like, facing someone head on, like a one eighty direct facing someone, and this other thing that we call proxemics. It's like within the first five minutes of interaction, you're not supposed to invade like the 26 inch mark. But if you and I were 26 let's say we're 26 inches away from each other, and we're both facing that wall of the podcast studio, we're it's fine. But at 26 inches and we both turn into each other and, like, face each other, now it's weird. So proximity and what's called ventral orientation, which is where we're how we're facing our bodies.

Those are the two fastest ways because you're setting off all of those mammalian brain alarms and saying something is something's off here. I need to protect myself. The fastest other way to do this is to automatically start using a tone of voice that's different than that person, and then inappropriate for the social setting. So way too loud or way too soft, and that makes people automatically think something is different about this person, so they're not part of this tribe. Because even if we're in a bar, that bar, the people that are drinking that we don't even know are part of our tribe because we're all acting the same, we're all drinking the same, we're all kind of have all of these things in common, so they become like a little micro tribe in the human brain.

Then somebody starts acting differently from that tribe and I interact with them. Let's say it's you, you come up to a table and, like, you're acting funny or doing something different than the rest of the tribe is doing. The moment that I start interacting with you, I become another outcast. I'm associating with someone who's not conforming to the tribe's agreed upon behavior. When is the right time to mirror someone's body language?

Let's talk about this. So when the mirroring stuff came out, it was a bunch of like behavior nerd virgins probably who would take a legal pad out with them to a bar, and they would watch people interact in a bar. So over time, they started making all these notes and they saw, oh, when people like each other, they're going to start mirroring each other's behaviors. So what that means is mirroring is a symptom of people liking each other, right? And this started our national obsession, this one thing, especially in psychology, it started this national obsession with symptoms because if you like if you go on LinkedIn or YouTube or Google right now and type in how to be confident, what are you going to see?

You're going to see all these articles like 17 ways to command respect like a CEO, twenty five ways to have confident body language for your next sales pitch, and what do the articles say? You click on it, open it up, really good posture, large gestures, speaking with certainty, making solid eye contact with someone, using their name really often, a firm handshake, touch them on the shoulder every once in a while. Those are symptoms of confidence. So our our country gets I don't know why. If you look at our health care system, we're obsessed with symptoms and not causes.

If you look at, like, how to be more, mindful during the day, They give you a bunch of symptoms of a mindful people, but not the cause of mindfulness. There's so many things out there that are and this only occurred to me like five years ago, after I retired from the military. They're all like symptom focused and what I call cause blind. So when back to this question that you asked me, I thought it was a huge tangent, but these these dudes are sitting in this bar writing all this stuff down. Me mirroring your behavior won't make you like me.

It's a symptom of us liking each other. So mirroring happens after the liking. What are some other things people do when they are, when they start to develop trust with each other? They get close. They get closer to each other.

They're more comfortable with physical contact. What else? What can you think of? They face more in, their feet point toward each other. Yeah.

Eye. So let's say you walk up and within the first couple minutes of an interaction you face someone directly, you get really close to them and you start touching their arm and hand. They're just symptoms. And we like somebody based on it, this little grocery list that's in our mammalian brain. Mirroring can be good in some situations, but it's not just a universal thing.

The best thing to mirror is, like, if a person's relaxed, I'll be relaxed. If they're attentive and focused, I'll be attentive and focused. I wanna mirror the mammal, not this not the body. Like, where are they mentally and, like, we you and I aren't mirroring each other really exactly at all. But we have very similar emotional body language.

Like, we're relaxed. We're having a conversation. That is far more important than, like, am I gonna cross my ankle over like that so Jack will like me? And it doesn't really, like, even if I did this right now, that's not making a difference in your psychology. You can't feel any difference of listening to me now versus when I have my legs crossed the other way.

But it is more of a difference if I'm, kind of matching you emotionally, and we're kind of have that going on. So if if we're mismatched emotionally and cognitively, that's where you wanna do the the work. We need to get that out to a match first. So like matching the the a person's body language is not gonna give you, I don't think, hardly any advantage whatsoever. Like if you've got all your shit figured out, you're a persuasion expert, you have unlimited, unstoppable confidence, you've learned all these linguistics, then mirroring might give you a little bit of an edge.

Maybe, like, a one to 2% edge. Interesting. It's so funny that people often refer to that as, like, the main thing to, I'll tell you why. Part of seduction. Yeah.

It's it's because I can teach you a technique that gives you a placebo of having developed some kind of skill. And it's something you can go out and do easily, but it's hard to get any results from it because you need so much other stuff to get results from other people. The mirroring was never a huge part of that, in my opinion. And I've studied this for thirty, forty thousand hours. I've crossed the ten thousand hour mark a long time ago.

And I'll give you another example of one of these things, like the linguistics I talked about. That's kind of a light level. It's not doing heavy lifting. Like, even though it sounds cool, though. Like, I learned this thing on a podcast where, like, you point at yourself and you say the word fascinating.

That is not a heavy lifting technique, but it makes you feel like, oh, you know, I've got this. I've got this little thing that I can take out and use. Me telling you to, like, be more mindful and fix your shit, be radically self forgiving, get to a point of confidence, go do a psychedelic journey or something, obviously, after you talk to a doctor. I'm not a doctor. I'm not giving anybody advice.

But, like, step out of all of these things that are holding you back, and you will live you will enjoy a planet that most people don't really live on. They're in a different reality, most people. They're living way behind their eyes in conversations. And that that has it's profound. Like, if you just look at what what we've been talking about this whole time, getting yourself to a point of composure and confidence is 99% of the heavy lifting, maybe 95%.

And the other 5% is cool tricks that we can throw on top of it. But the one thing that I teach is this thing called the failure triangle. You can look at any situation, that involves human beings and look at there's one of three reasons it fails. I failed to observe, like, I didn't read the room, I didn't read the person, or I didn't understand that person's needs well enough. I failed to communicate, and this is I failed to say the right words.

I failed to pitch it correctly. Understand who I was talking to and say the right words and communicate the right way, or maybe I just talk in a freaking boring way, I'm just boring. And the third one is self mastery. So it's observation, communication, and self mastery. So let's say my observation was great, my communication was great, but I have no mastery over myself.

I put a suit on, I put a sharp tie on, went out and got a manicure and a haircut and all this other stuff, And back home, I've got a 15 foot pile of laundry that I haven't done. My sink's full of shit. My bathroom counter's covered in crap all all over the place. But I'm pretending like in this sales pitch that I'm that I have my shit together. There's part of our brain that reads those gut feelings like we talked about, and that that the other person says, you know what?

He everything sounded great, but something was off. Something didn't feel right about this situation. The the heaviest lifting thing is the self mastery part where we kind of get and it's people don't wanna hear it. They want, no, no, no, give me the give me the little cool technique, give me the script. But it's like I can give you the best script in the world.

You gotta be the right person who can read it. It it that's what it comes down to. I give you a flight checklist for an airplane. It does not make you a pilot. I guess, just spending a bit of time with me, how could I the original question was how could I use mirroring to get better responses from guests, But, given that it's a bit irrelevant, what could I do to, what kinds of questions, what kinds of behaviors would get me the most useful personal information from people?

Statements, not questions. So what I mean by that is somebody says, x x x is the answer to all these things, and you pretty much sum it up. You say so or so basically x x x and you kind of deliver the summary and they're gonna start adding on. And then you throw another statement out there after they add on to it, you'll be like, wait, is that I don't know if I believe that. Is that is that really is I don't know if that's possible for someone to do that much.

Then you're going to get a long statement out there because that's disbelief, right? And you're not saying you don't believe the person, but like, wow. You might they might give you a fact. You say something like, oh my god. That's hard to believe that that's even real.

That's amazing. I didn't ask any questions and they're gonna start responding. They'll be like, yeah. And actually, they'll keep going down on the data. And then you do another provocative statement that is maybe triggering a need to correct the record.

So let's say give me a topic we're talking about. Like pretend you're a guest for one second. I'll be Jack. Yeah. Chocolate ice cream is worse than vanilla ice cream.

Wow. So I and you're the expert in ice cream, is that right? I mean, I studied ice cream for forty five years. Okay, so I'm not sure where I read it, but I read that 90% of people like vanilla over chocolate. Where did you read?

I can't remember where I read it, but I thought like in my life I would have sworn that more people like vanilla. Okay. And then it would be something along the lines of, well, research shows this and this and this and this, and I just feel the need to correct it. Yeah, so then you say oh research shows this this and this and I might say that is absolutely fascinating and there's a yeah because it it goes back this this this and there's more elicitation statements. So because you wanna prove that something is more fascinating.

Yes. And then you prove that it's more fascinating. Then I say, so essentially, these guys all came together just to do this one study on chocolate versus vanilla ice cream. And then you go, yeah. And even in 1973, you're adding some more data in there.

So the more sensitive the information you want to get from a person, the the more statements you should be using instead of questions. And that's where like these provocative statements come in, triggering a need to correct the record, and this other thing called bracketing. So if I want to get some kind of thing from you, I'll just say a statement that says a bracket of numbers or whatever, but let's say we're doing the ice cream, I would have a bracket saying so I would I guess I would imagine that like, to get these results, they must have studied thousands of people, but, like, probably between a 5,000 people were involved in this study. And they're like, well, actually, so that's me showing a range of numbers, and it doesn't matter like if the range is off, if in fact if the range is off they'll be like no no no it's way more than that. Then they'll, so it's bracketing and triggering a need to correct the record at the exact same time.

This is a technique the Soviets used, in all throughout the cold war to obtain secrets from United States Navy and it was invent well, invented, discovered, I guess, by this guy named, John Nolan. And he wrote a book called Confidential that you can't even get anymore, even on eBay, I don't think. It talks about this stuff called elicitation. So it makes your brain feel like you're not being really questioned over and over and over again. So no matter what I say, like I'm talking right now about elicitation and all you do is kind of nod and be like, that's fascinating.

I bet I bet a lot of different countries use this. So that's a provocative statement that starts with I bet. Right? And then I start talking about all, like, yeah, the Russians used this in the Cold War to get secrets about our submarines. And then you just do a word repetition.

Submarines? And then I go, yeah. The size of these propellers, how how fast they could go, how deep they could go, how covert they would go, and you'd say, another provocative statement, these submarines go really deep, I would imagine. The Russians probably got a lot of secrets from us. There's no questions yet.

I'm like, oh my god. Yeah. They got this size of our propeller. They could figure out how close we could be to launch these nuclear missiles. And you say, which is amazing because they needed that data for x, y, and z.

So it's just a lot of statement responses and I'm not saying a % of your podcast needs to be statement based but So in this case the words are more effective than the actual like confidence and emotions behind them? Yes. And that what you just did was a provocative statement. Fast learner. I need to implement it more, but I I guess just, what's the effective time to use questions?

Like, does it make people feel more comfortable to ask a question or does it actually, like, have some sort of discomfort? If you're leading into something that, might be sensitive or might that person might not usually give to everybody, that's where you want to pepper in like 90% statement, 10% questions. If you want a person's mammalian brain to get an idea, you have to paint a picture vivid enough with sensory rich information that allows their mammalian brain to get it. So, the mammalian brain does not speak English in any way. It doesn't understand language, But once the human brain understands something where it can form a bunch of pictures and images, that translates down to the mammalian side of the brain.

Does that make sense? So, let's say I wanted to get you to kind of mentally get a imagery in your mammalian brain of like letting go. I might talk about something that vividly paints that picture, so I might say something like Jack, I was a little stressed when I got off the plane and I booked this, my assistant actually booked me with this massage therapist who's like famous around the country. He came to the hotel room and I've never felt that degree of relaxation before like all the tension in your body just being completely erased, like your shoulders just drop. Everything falls, like even the skin on your face starts to relax.

You didn't know that you carried tension in your skin and your scalp. And you didn't even realize how easy it was to just kind of fully let go into an experience. That was very hypnotic. Your breathing rate slowed by about three breaths per minute. You'll have that on camera if you want to look at it.

And all I'm doing is I'm painting a picture first and then I'm describing sensory experiences about something else. But if I sat here and I said, Jack, I want you to picture your skin relaxing, that's weird, Right? Like, if we're in a conversation, that's weird. But if I'm talking about me, I can say the same words to get your brain to associate all of those feelings, and you cannot mentally pay attention to a story like the one I just said without kind of going into what that feels like and what that might feel like. And if it's novel and unique and a person hasn't really thought about it before, you'll get them to bite on a lot more.

So, like you have never probably pictured the sensation of the skin on your scalp relaxing until just when I said it a second ago. You're like, Wow, you can kind of relax that skin a little bit. So, if it's novel, so it's it's a new piece of information that they kind of haven't pictured before, it's interesting, it's sensory rich, and it paints a picture, then I'm translating that into the mammalian brain. So whatever I want somebody to mentally experience, if I speak it in that way, I can translate that into the mammalian brain, which means I'm getting the body to, adopt or I'm getting the brain to develop the image that I want it to to see. And the sensory experience is effective with emotions you want to experience?

Or is it effective with any kind of emotion, like, a stressor, say? Yeah. So, like, if you wanted to stress someone out, you could explain in detail the process of feeling like that stress in the pit of your stomach, your shoulders tightening up. You could you could go in any direction that you wanted to go for sure. What would that, sound like?

For the stress? Yeah. You describe, some scenario where you became stressed out and you didn't realize it. Like I didn't realize how stressed I was about let's say I'm coming on your podcast, right, and let's say I get really nervous on on podcast. And I say, you know, Jack, I was just sitting in my hotel room last night and I just I didn't even realize that I was stressed until I, like, paid a little bit of attention to my body, and I realized, like, my shoulders were getting tighter and tighter and tighter, and my breathing was getting into this really shallow spot.

I was clenching my jaw, and you've I'm sure you've had that feeling before, like, your stress is just kind of overtaking your body. So now I've translate I've changed it from me talking about me to you. And that's me talking about you directly, which allows you to kind of resist it and say, I don't know. I don't think I've had that before. But if I translate it to the general you, then I can say the word you without talking about you directly, and I'll give you an example of that.

I'd rather do it about something positive, but it was, you know, it was in my hotel room last night just thinking about this and I just noticed all this tension and you know when like your body starts tightening up and your jaw is clenching and you don't really know why all of this is happening and everything just gets tighter and more resistant. It's like your muscles and your skin just turn into this armor. So, I'm saying you all of this time, but I'm not directly talking about you, it's the general you. But I started with I, so I did this, I did this, and you know when you have that feeling of blank. So I'm changing my language to shift from I to talking about you, and that's called an IU shift or the fancy name for that is a shift of referential index.

And this is useful in, just day to day conversations, and I'm guessing it'd be particularly useful in interrogations. Yeah. And if you could imagine, like if the number one currency in persuasion, influence, human behavior, leadership, fill in the blank, whatever you you're doing with other humans, your number one currency is focus. So if I wanted to develop focus in you really quick, I would talk about how fascinating watching a podcast was or reading a book was or whatever, and I would vividly talk about the process of the volume getting turned down on everything around you and how much all of your focus can just zoom in on one thing when you know that something's important to you. So, I I narrowed in your focus with my hands and then I said, when something is important to you, and I casually kind of pointed to myself.

So I'm vividly describing the process of focus happening, getting absorbed in something, and everything else kind of fading away to where it's just one thing has all of your attention and all of your awareness, and that's the most important thing for you. That's really fascinating that every time you say focus, I would imagine, that the viewers probably watch the podcast a bit longer. So Let's see what the drop off rate is. How did, how how does this apply in interrogations? And, I guess, generally, when you're interrogating someone, torture is more effective than kindness.

Right? It's the opposite. Really? Yes. Proven.

Time and time again proven. And this started in World War two with a Nazi interrogator, a German interrogator. His name was Hans Scharf. Every interrogation system that's taught that I'm aware of in the world, is a derivative of the work of Hans Scharf. He was the first guy that said, hey, what if we're not total dicks to these people?

What if we're not just pure assholes to these guys all the time? What if we take them out of their cell, take them on a walk around the park, give them a little better food, give them Advil when they need it, you know, blah blah blah. And it turned out that he got better results than so many other guys combined. He was getting intelligence from these people and he had a few basic tenants. Being kind, pretending like you know everything.

So every single thing they say, every piece of intelligence they provide, yeah, we knew that already. That's not a big deal. And a few other methods that we can get into, but the kindness part is so much more effective because if you think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and I'm imagining that like popping up on the YouTube screen for for you at home right now. If I'm a dick to you and I'm torturing you, I'm injecting you with stuff all the time, I'm pushing you down to that lower level of survival and safety. Once you're there, are you you're only worried about you.

Which means that if you're providing intelligence and all this stuff, you're just gonna make stuff up to survive. So when people are getting tortured, they're at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid and they will just do everything possible, even giving massive amounts of false information just to keep themselves alive, and prevent the pain from happening. That make sense? And in reality, when we're talking about like criminal, interrogation, there are five big things that you want to hit for an interrogation. So, you want to socialize, minimize, rationalize, project, and ask an alternative question.

So, give me a crime, and you can make up whatever you want, and I will make up a monologue is what we call that. And that's when you're in an interrogation, I ask you a couple of questions. There's like two or three questions that are absolutely brilliant at uncovering whether somebody is likely guilty or likely innocent. If we you wanna go through those first? Sure.

Yeah. So number one, let's say Or I I guess we could say the crime first. So if I stole $5,000 from a seven Eleven. Okay. So number one, and this is called debate question.

So let's say I'm the police officer coming in here, the first thing I'm gonna do is separate myself from the authority figures. So I'm not going to come in with a uniform, I'm going to come in with civilian clothes, I'm going to try not to have a gun on me unless my department requires the gun to be on my belt in the interrogation room, which is a horrible, horrible policy. You should never allow firearms into an interrogation room. So when I walk in, I'm gonna separate myself from the police outside. I say, hey, I came in here.

These guys are, you know, running this investigation and stuff, and, we're just gonna get started. I'm actually just waiting on some paperwork, if you wouldn't mind. Just, it probably won't be very long. So during this little period, and I learned this from Scott Rouse, who's an interrogator, also on the behavior panel. This little pretend period of waiting for papers is all fake.

It's made so we're mandated to sit here together, and I can start doing whatever I want. I can ask where you're from, I can ask these kind of basic questions and stuff. Then, they're gonna bring these papers in, and we'll start doing some little conversation, but then I'll drop in this question, and I'll say and I'll just say this to you as if I were in in the interrogation room, so you can hear the tone of my voice in all this. I'd say, Jack, today's my day off. And I I think the same reason I came in here is because, is I think you're a good person.

So I I just wanna say this to you, which I don't really say to many people, but I I'm just gonna ask you a question. I want you to think very, very hard, before you answer. I want you to really consider the question before you give me an answer. Is there any reason whatsoever that a video camera in that seven Eleven, would have you at that store? Yes.

Okay. So now I've placed you at the scene, right? But at the at the beginning if I go, were you at that seven eleven? You'd be like, nope. Doesn't imply something else.

Yeah. Right. It's like, were you there that day at this time? Yeah. And you can deny that.

And I also didn't say that there's a video. So it's not I'm not lying to you. I'm not saying there is a video. And if you just kinda go to the let's go to the OJ Simpson case. If you asked OJ, like, were you at Nicole's house last night?

He'd be like, no. So he drove his Bronco to that house. Right? Mhmm. So in the O.

J. Case, you would say, O. J, is there any reason, any reason at all, and please keep in mind those guys are out there investigating this stuff and they are like pounding the ground. There's like 400 officers we have working on this case right now. And I want you to think carefully before you answer this.

Is there any reason at all that one of the neighbors or a couple of the neighbors would say that they saw your vehicle outside of Nicole's house last night? Now I've nailed you. As you know that if you say no, then there's potentially multiple eyewitnesses who saw you and now you're from the very beginning you're lying. And who you're only lying if you're guilty. Right?

So that question is so powerful and it it's just is there any reason x y z would exist? Your fingerprints would show up. There would be DNA there. Sometimes there's DNA that travels around all the time. So, is there any reason we might find some DNA on that thing?

So, the second piece of this is called the punishment question. And the punishment question is great because it really differentiates between guilty and innocent people pretty fast. And the punishment question is, let's say that you're kind of denying taking the $10 from the seven Eleven. I would say, like, well, we know that $10 was stolen. What do you think should happen to the person that that steals $10 from a store?

And that makes you consider it, because now you're gonna have to tell me, the person who might be locking you up, what you what you're gonna get as a sentence, right? So people are gonna be a lot more lenient. And even in interviews with, predators of people under the age of 18, I don't know what YouTube blocks, but I'll just say it that way. You ask them like, what do you think should happen to the person who did this? And you'll get answers, legitimate answers from these people that say like, well, the person's sick, they have a they have a mental problem and they definitely need some kind of counseling, some kind of therapy and help, but they're they're sick.

Probably not jail time, but they should definitely offer yes, yeah, like a a written apology to the family. They should definitely do that. But they're sick, the person's sick and they definitely need some kind of help. Nobody, nobody would say that about a person who hurts a kid. Nobody would say that.

No rational person. And I mean, I've I've done this to my kids. When my kids were like six or seven, I went home. You've probably heard me say this if you've watched a podcast or two of mine, but they there was a thing of milk spilled on the living room floor and I asked them who did it, they were both like, I don't know. It just just appeared there.

So I asked my daughter, what do you think should happen to the person who did this? And she go right away she goes, spankings, grounded, no Xbox, can't play outside, can't do all my friends, have to stay in the room and read all that. I was like, okay, okay. Then I went to my son and said, Will, what should happen to the person that spilled that milk? And he goes, no more chocolate milk in the living room?

So it works equally on adults and and kids. So then we move into, let's say, I've asked all these, there's like 10 questions we ask to see if someone's probably guilty or probably innocent, then we that's an interview. And the moment that we get through those 10 questions and I think, okay, Jack probably did this, now we transition into interrogation. Now that's the difference. Interviews, let's find out what happened.

Interrogation is this person might be the one I'm looking for. At this phase of the interrogation, there's a whole lot that we were not covering, but we get to this part called the monologue. And the monologue is designed to offload and if anybody's in sales or anybody listening is in any kind of persuasion job, this can be repurposed for anything and it is massively powerful. Minimize, rationalize, project, alternative question. Okay?

So let's break it down one thing at a time, and I want you just to imagine hearing this all as one long monologue, but I'm gonna give you paragraph headers for for everything I'm going to say, and you want to go with the $7.11 $10 is missing. So, first step is socialize. I'm going to say, Jack, I gotta be honest with you, I think once people see what happened and they see all these circumstances, that I think everybody's going to understand why this happened. And I think it's going to make sense for anybody who hears your story. It's going to make perfect sense.

Minimize. And this is $10,000 I deal with murderers. I deal with rapists, I deal with horrible human beings day in and day out. And when I heard this story, I knew that you're most likely a really good person. And this is not a big deal.

People walk out of this, you're gonna walk out of here in a little bit, this we can absolutely get through this. I see bad stuff all the time, this is not a bad thing. Let's minimize, rationalize. And if you just look at your life, I think people are gonna understand because anybody in your shoes would have done the same thing. And it makes perfect sense because they left the safe open, or they didn't pay you enough, or your your boss is just a dick.

And he was kind of begging you to do this, they left the safe unlocked, or they left the keys with you overnight. And now it's, project, and I personally believe that you're a good person. I don't think this is your fault. I think anybody in the same circumstances we get circumstances in our life and so when those circumstances line up, it's easy for us to make an error, make a mistake. And I think that you did make a mistake.

And I have to be honest with you. In this folder right here, we're tracking three different groups that are involved with human trafficking. And they're making people steal money. And I know that your aunt is going through chemotherapy right now, and I know she's, suffering a great deal, and that's very expensive. What I need to know, Jack, is if you're involved with this human trafficking scheme right here, this is a big deal, and we need to talk about that.

But if you've made a mistake and you're a good person, I think you were trying to help your aunt pay for those chemotherapy bills, and I think you did the right thing. But if you're involved with this, this is a whole another story. If you just made a mistake and this is a one time thing, that's all different, and we can get over that. I'm not here to arrest you. I'm not here to get you in trouble in any way.

I'm not here to prosecute you. So that's the alternative question at the end. Was it this big nasty horrible thing or did you just make a mistake? And then you'll see a little bit of hesitation in most people and some people you'll hear them say, What happens if I say that I did it? And you say, I can't make you any promises, but I can promise you that people are gonna understand and you kinda just start the monologue over again and go back, but I really need to understand if this is going to human trafficking or you're maybe trying to help one of your family members.

And if it is, all I need from you is one thing. You don't have to say anything, but what I really need from you is a written statement that says, you understand that this was wrong, and you make a solemn promise to me right now that you won't do it again. And in a guilty person's mind that sounds like, well, I can go if I do this. But that's a confession that I've just got here to write down. So and that's one of the most common tricks in police interrogation is, I just want you to say that you understand that it's wrong and you promise that you will not ever do it again, and you promise that you'll never do it again in front of a judge.

You say, okay. That's it. And when I say I'm not gonna arrest you, I'm not gonna prosecute you, I'm not. That's the guy standing outside the room. He's gonna do that.

I'm just the interrogator. So it is honest, and it is, forthcoming, and it alleviates all of the pressures and all of the reasons that somebody might have against a confession. What are people gonna think? This is a huge deal. It's all my fault.

This is, going we could go over really badly and this is, something I had control over and I shouldn't have done. So you're taking all of that off of their plate by saying someone else's fault, not a big deal, people are going to understand and it makes anybody in your shoes would have done the exact same thing that you did. And you're kind of smashing that all in one big paragraph. It's fascinating how effective that could be, like, the whole priming. It feels a bit similar to sales, like how I take it sales calls have gone in my experience.

But I guess the part I'm curious about is it's only effective if the person is guilty, or have you ever seen or heard of cases where people utilize those types of methods to get a false confession of someone. You can totally get a false confession using that, and it's when you misuse those techniques. Or the moment that an interrogator is more concerned with a confession than the truth, you are in dangerous, dangerous territory, and that is not an ethical person. Every interrogator should be truth first, confession from the truth, absolutely. But if they're convinced a % this person did it, and they're saying things like, you're not gonna leave this room until we get the full story.

You're not gonna leave this room until I hear why you did this. I just wanna know why. So I'm not asking you to confess to the crown, I just want to know why you did it. And you'll hear so much of that kind of over and over and over again, depriving them of food for a prolonged period, maybe getting them sleep deprived, and there are studies published that sleep deprivation drastically increases suggestibility, and you can implant memories and thoughts into people's heads, and that's been proven. So, at the end of the day, the false confession is not about technique, it's about the person using it.

So, a scalpel can hurt someone or save someone's life, and it's all about the intent of the person using it. So if you have somebody that's low integrity or low education, like they haven't been taught how to avoid a false confession and they've a lot of cops out there do not get training in interrogation or anything advanced in interrogation. And I train police departments in interrogation, and I'm not gonna say any department names, but I would say 50 to 70% of cops have no interrogation training. So the way that they know how to do an interrogation is from what they saw on TV, from Law and Order and and shows like that. And when training these people, the instructions you would give theoretically to get the truth, would be the same instructions you would give to get a false confession?

No. Very different. There's a whole list of things that make false confessions happen. And when when I say false confession, I just wanna clarify that. I mean, like, you, I, are trying to, I guess, get another scapegoat for a crime committed, like some conspiracy stuff, like you want someone to be innocent and you want some random person to be guilty.

Yeah. Yeah. You could use similar techniques, but you're going to need to do some unethical things. You cannot accidentally get a false confession if you're going for the truth. If your priority is getting the truth, you I don't think you could be led into a false confession because they'd start saying stuff about the crime, and, like, I've seen false confessions where the person says they used a 22 caliber gun, and it was a nine millimeter that killed somebody, and the police coerced them into saying, no, no, no, go back in your memory again.

Do you remember that nine millimeter? Do you remember those nine millimeter shell casings? Do you remember pushing those down into that magazine? So, the moment a person remembers something inaccurate about the crime, that's that's a massive red flag that that they've been, manipulated. The problem is that the person spotting the red flag is the person that created the red flag most of the time.

I guess you can't speak of, specific instances, but, in your studies, what's the CIA's most disturbing experiment? To me. They had a experiment that they did in Canada and I am never so many times people are like, Oh, you must know all about this MK Ultra project and names and dates and locations. I'm not a historian. I don't give a shit about 99% of MK Ultra.

I I care about the techniques and the methods and the protocols and stuff that were a result of MK Ultra. I'm not like, let me go fact check and get everybody's name right and dates. I don't have any of that because it was never important to me. But they did this thing in Canada, and, I can't remember the guy's name, but they took people coming in for just normal appointments, like, I have postpartum depression or I have anxiety, and they would like they would, against their will, do this thing called psychic driving. Had nothing to do with being psychic, it just meant psychic of the mind, and they would give them massive, prolonged doses of LSD, and in some cases tape their eyes open like clockwork orange and play these videos in front of their face all the time, and they thought it was going to like reprogram their brain somehow.

But what happened was a lot of the people had, had to learn how to walk again, they couldn't control their bladder, they had to learn how to control their urine and stuff like that again. Some of them lost thirty, forty years of memories from their life, and these were people who checked into a clinic for, like, anxiety, and this was, funded by MK Ultra, and it was in Canada. And it's so well known, and it's so open that even the Canadian government paid the people's families who were who just got wrecked because of this thing. And the other thing they did, and there's so much mind warfare stuff that we could go into, but they did this thing called Project Midnight Climax in a brothel. And these Johns would come in like they're like, well, I wanna spend the night with this hooker.

They take them up the hooker's taken up to a hotel room. They drug these dudes with high doses of LSD. And there are mirrors in these hotel rooms with dudes watching. Like, behind a mirror in the hotel room, there's scientists watching this stuff and watching, what takes place. That is the most bizarre and weird thing I've ever ever even heard of.

They could experiment with LSD on a lot of people. Then they they did it with soldiers and the British Royal Air Force did this with, or British Army did this with LSD. And LSD was just, like, the rave of the time, because the CIA thought it might be this miracle mind control drug because these videos were coming back from the Korean War of these Americans getting brainwashed and stuff, so they're like, there is something happening to these Americans that we don't have the technology to do. But it was a it was a psychological arms race, or so we thought it was. It was just basic stuff.

It was like very basic brainwashing stuff. What were the results of that midnight high? Nobody knows. No? Nobody knows.

I think it was just studying the, effects of LSD and the effects of what they call interrogative suggestibility. So, can I make you confess to stuff, can I get intelligence out of you if you're a captured asset of some kind? And I don't think they they publish anything afterwards, like some after action report or anything. It was an interesting time period. I won't go into this too much, but have you heard did you know they were testing, like, LSD and dolphins in the seventies?

And do you know why they had to stop doing that? No. It was because Robbie, do you remember this? Yeah. It was, one of the female scientists, was having sex with a dolphin named Peter, and the dolphin ended up, like, getting depressed because she was taken off the project, and then he, like, took his own life.

And that's why they stopped running LSD to dolphins. Yeah. Build itself? Yeah. How?

I don't remember. Holy smokes. But, yeah, we covered this a while back. It just made me think of that. But, Wow.

On hypnosis, would you say you're one of the best hypnotherapists you've come across? No idea. I don't do therapy. I I don't know about I don't know a lot of other hypnotists. I haven't tested their skill levels.

I have the number one best selling book in hypnosis, for five years straight, I think, on and off. What can you not hypnotize someone to do? There's no limit. Can you hypnotize me right now? Yeah.

Okay. But, anyone listening, we have to do these legal disclaimers of if you're driving a car, if you're operating machinery, you gotta pause or turn the tape off or or not tape, but, stop the video. They would have to do it. Let's go into the science of it first if you want to Yeah. And how it works.

So the first, like, seven, eight years of our life, our brains are spending most of their time in this brainwave state called theta. And theta is kind of like a deep meditation and relaxation, and it makes us way more ready to absorb data and absorb information. And that's how we learn language so fast, we learn to walk so fast, and all these amazing insights are coming to us as as little kids because we're in theta state so much. And hypnosis is a way that gets our brain back into that theta brainwave state. And it does it by a few ways.

We're relaxing the physiology of the body, which is not always necessary, but it definitely helps. And when your body relaxes and your brain is relaxed, it releases this neurotransmitter called GABA, which is gamma aminobutyric acid, and it is the brain's calming down mechanism. It's called an inhibitory neurotransmitter. So it tells everybody to like, hey, let's calm it down, don't need to worry about things, it's the safety chemical, it's essentially what it is. So if you're with a hypnotist, there is a way that they speak in a certain way that relaxes the body and relaxes the mind and then obtains a whole lot of focus, and that's kind of what hypnosis is.

Theta wave brain state plus focus plus a desire or some expectation that something positive is gonna happen. And most hypnotists will tell you, you can't be made to do something that you normally wouldn't do, you can't you can't be made to do something against your will. That's not true. That is absolutely not true. You can be made to do a lot.

So, like, I think it's important. There was just a case in in Washington state where a hypnotist was, or no, he was an attorney. Have you heard about this? Mhmm. He was a lawyer and he had this female client who was going through, I think, going through a divorce, and he would hypnotize her in his office to like say, oh, I'm going to help you relax.

I'm going to help you, you know, get rid of some of these negative beliefs. And he was sexually assaulting her under hypnosis in his office. And she was taking her clothes off and all this stuff. And I've heard a few hypnotists say, well, she she must have would have done that in her normal everyday life or she wouldn't have done that. But I want you to understand that if I can change context, I can get you to do anything.

It's like, you're not thinking about killing me, it's not something that you would think about doing, but if you genuinely believe I was coming at you with a knife and you had a gun, I've modified the context and now it's okay. So your permission in your brain of, like, I can't kill this person, I'm not thinking about it, everything radically changes. Right? So if I can if if this lawyer I don't know how he did it, but this lawyer who's doing the sexual assault modifies the context and saying, like, well, you're probably gonna get naked today, but not here in the studio. But probably when you take a shower, you're gonna get naked.

So if I change I hypnotize you and then change the context to you just getting home from work and putting your keys on the entry table, putting your wallet down there, walking into the bathroom, turning on that nice hot shower, feeling that steam, and that then it's time to strip down and get in the shower. I didn't modify anything about what you normally do, what you're doing against your will. All I did was change context. So if a person can change and manipulate context, which we're seeing in politics right now, If you look very closely, everything that's going on with manipulation is about three things, and it's PCP. So I modify your perception, which allows me to shift the context, which changes permission.

Perception, context, and permission. Everything is about that. So always be on the lookout for how your perception is being modified because the next thing that they will change is the context. The context enables you to do things that you would have never otherwise done, like throwing a Molotov cocktail through a Target store window here in LA. So, it's always perception, context, and then permission.

But the thing is, like, when something is extremely good and capable of helping people, we might be able to use that same technology to do something bad and to hurt people. So it's kind of a double edged sword. And and Could you hypnotize me to murder someone? Absolutely. And how long would that take?

Forty minutes. And that's like, you think anyone you could do? Or is it just because I'm slightly more susceptible? So there would be time. Let's talk about that, unpack that a little bit.

So, some of that is about suggestibility. Suggestibility is by so many psychologists and scientists referred to as this thing that's like a solid state. This person is highly suggestible, this person is medium suggestible, this person is low. It is very much context dependent, so your suggestibility is also a measure of my level of authority, my confidence, and what you think about me. So, we could take a suggestible person and you say, Oh, I'm prone to go into hypnosis, so I go in easily.

Well, what if a third grader did it? It's context, right? So your suggestibility is based on context again, context. So if I have a lower suggestible person, I need to modify that person's level of suggestibility, like their level of trust, their level of openness, their level of focus on the conversation, and their level of expectancy. Do I expect something generally positive to come from this?

I'm gonna make myself more suggestible because I'm getting more excited about the outcome that's gonna come from the hypnosis. That make sense? Yeah. Okay. So those are the six things, the six factors that determine success with hypnosis.

Focus, openness, connection, suggestibility, compliance, and expectancy. Those six things. And you only need three of those to make a murderer. Just three. If you look at the Milgram experiment, there was no openness, there was no connection, and there was no expectancy, they had no idea what was happening next, what was gonna come next.

They just had, focus, adjustability, and compliance. And they made murderers in less than an hour. And they did it with no hypnosis. Zero hypnosis. No techniques, no linguistics.

It was just authority and novelty, something new. I'm in a building I've never been in, in front of this machine I've never seen, with this dude in a lab coat that I've never met before. Everything was novel, and we know novelty generates a tremendous amount of focus inside of our brain. So, when you're hypnotizing somebody to do something like that, you can modify two different types of context. First context is it's a life or death scenario where you need to shoot somebody.

The second context is you see that gun that you're holding as a water gun or something that's absolutely harmless. So those are the two ways we can modify context. And there's a guy named George Estabrooks who I think was kind of the pioneer in doing this hypnosis for things that may not be in your best interest. And George Esherbrooke is a professor at Colgate University, and he had these documents called Super Spy, where it talked about how to split a personality and how to program spies to carry secrets in these, like, partitioned, so to speak, parts of their brain that even if they were interrogated and captured they couldn't access until they received some kind of code word across the across the enemy lines. These are MK Ultra documents that were inside of George Esther Brooks' attic and never got destroyed, that the CIA told them to destroy.

They're not even on the Internet. I have and I will put them for you if you want to throw them in the show notes. And these are brand new. This is not like something you type in MKL training, you get get access to these documents. So it goes to this little formula to make this super soldier and then super spy.

And he was one of these pioneers. These are letters between him and J Edgar Hoover. And him and a lot of these famous hypnotists hypnotherapists and psychiatrists back then. And he was a, psychiatrist as well. So Estabrooks had these systems developed, and their overall they developed an entire plan to hypnotize this German, submarine captain and send him back to his harbor in Germany and have him torpedo the entire German fleet with a split personality.

As I know that plan never went through, never came to fruition, but all of the steps of this plan were in there, and it's all about those six things I talked about and can I get enough expectancy, focus, openness, connection and compliance and suggestibility? And if I can level up six of those, I can do anything I want. If you just look at the Milgram experiment, it was only three. If you have all six, you can literally do whatever you want. And these are like cult leader things.

Like, if I have you captive and I'm making you do stuff all the time, you're conforming to the tribe, and there's tons of authority, and your emotions are being messed with. So I have your mammalian brain captured. And then around there, we have all of those six things, which is what influences the human brain. If I have those six, I can do whatever I want. Anything I can get you to do anything I want.

I don't need hypnosis. I don't need anything else. I just need those six things. And if you look at what Manson did, it was obviously trained by the CIA. I mean, it's it's kind of obvious now.

This guy named Jolley West was, I think, heavily involved in this stuff. But like Manson told a librarian to go kill a pregnant person, which is bizarre, especially a woman killing a woman who's pregnant is almost unheard of. It's like all of us, every human being has this innate, desire to protect pregnant people. It's innate. It's I think it's built into everybody.

To override that, you would have to have all four of that mammalian brain control and then all six of the human brain control with all six of those elements. Can you hypnotize someone to, like, do something they can't normally do? Like, physically lift more weight than they can, jump higher than they can, that kind of thing? Absolutely. But what you're really you're not modifying ability.

You're modifying, perception of limitation. So I've done this with many different UFC fighters and and boxers where we hypnotize them not to get gassed out and to not really feel a lot of pain during the fight, and it has worked absolutely. You can, I mean, you can watch it on YouTube? You can watch the fights of the guys that I've worked with. And it's like you're looking at a human Terminator that he'll make facial expressions.

You're not seeing them, like, heaving in the corner during these, breaks in between rounds, but you can absolutely do that. What's I guess what's something you're surprised you can do or people on stage are surprised that you can do? I don't know. I've never used hypnosis as like a demo in my life, not even once. Oh.

Well maybe like in a bar or something like that. What'd you do in the bar? Mostly like and like I could teach you to do this in five minutes, but it looks dramatic. So no one cares about any degree that I have or anything like that or any books I've written. But you could do this one thing in a bar that we're like you just have someone lay on the ground and it looks dramatic.

So like you tell them to go down and they just you kind of guide them down on the ground and just kind of leave them there. And people are like, oh, my god. This is like a magical power. Like, I could teach you how to do that in five minutes. It's not hard.

How fast could you make me? Yeah. Or could you try to make me, like, fall asleep in this chair just, like, all the way? Is that possible? Easily.

Yeah. You wanna go through it? Yeah. Any, special thing that you would like as an outcome of this? More confidence?

More discipline? What would what would you prefer? More focus. A lot more focus. All right, so I have an innate desire to explain everything that I'm doing as I'm doing it, but I'm just going to go ahead and do it without any explanation.

Beautiful. All right, so go ahead and put both of your feet flat on the ground and just let your legs relax. And now, I want you every breath that you're taking, I want you to imagine that your lungs almost go all the way to the bottom of your feet like you're trying to fill up your legs with that air that you're breathing in. That's great. And just continue those just deep deep breaths, and all I want you to do is imagine every one of those tiny muscles around your eyes completely finally getting your permission to just let go.

And then just the skin on the back of your neck, you can just picture that what that would feel like if that skin could finally just release and unwind. And letting every piece of that stuff go and knowing that the deeper that you're allowing your self to go now, the better it feels. And the better it feels, the more you're gonna accept this suggestion for increased focus in your life. It's gonna get even better. And the more those breaths continue to just breathe themselves, the more the skin around the entire body can completely let go and just feeling even those muscles running alongside the left and right side of your spine, finally getting your permission to just let go and letting everything go.

And when you're ready allowing the eyes close only when you're ready to go completely down and letting that head just relax and go into a natural place of just absolute letting go, and all those muscles just completely unraveling, letting your mind wander wherever it wants to go, and just letting my voice be right there where it is in the center of your mind. You can just sleep all the way down, even deeper than before, letting that neck completely relax all the way back. Noticing that as you continue those breaths, the deeper you go, your body continues to go deeper and deeper than ever before, every muscle relaxing, releasing, and completely letting go. Allowing that part of your mind that doesn't need to be here to drift wherever it needs to go, And knowing that every time you touch any doorknob or any handle to open any door, you'll be reminded of the following suggestion, that every single day of your life your level of focus on what's important will continue to increase, Your level of absolute drive and focus on the most important things will be unshakable, more focused than any time in your life.

Every time you touch a doorknob or any device to open a door, your brain will automatically completely recall and make even more powerful the suggestion that you're receiving right in the center of your mind right now. You allow all of that part of your brain to absorb everything right where I am right here in the center of your mind, letting all those muscles completely relax, release, and let go. And now, in a moment, I'm going to count from one to five to bring you right back here to the room, And with each number increasing, letting that suggestion sit deeper and deeper and more permanent, and only allowing the eyes to open as that suggestion becomes absolutely permanent in your mind. One, getting more aware of just the sounds in the room again. Two, a little more aware of that chair underneath your legs and the weight of your feet on the floor.

Three, back to hearing my voice off to the left side of your head right now. And five, letting everything become more and more permanent as you come right back to this room. Oh, man. I will say, guys, that's very impressive considering he didn't have much time with me to even start on it. Gosh.

So it's I know the words that you need to hear, though. Yeah. And I've spent two hours with you now, and I know every word that causes your blink rate to go down. That's impressive. Well, we only have a few minutes left.

Let's take a look at the notepad to see what the predictions were originally. You don't have to read them out loud. I would read them to yourself first. Can you explain the second one to me? Or maybe I don't remember what it says.

Getting the writing wrong. You want to read it? You can read it. That's fine. Frequently ruminating on what could have been said or communicating differently or wishing you had communicated differently.

Yeah. I I would say nailed it on those. I mean, I'll say them to the audience for for fun. The the first one was, deeply worried about how you're being perceived to the point it interferes with your life. And the last one was using constant exposure to sound, voice, video when alone to avoid more deep slash penetrating thoughts that interfere with self-concept and self confidence and certainty about the world.

Yeah. These are really good. I have one other guest that, had interviewed. Like, hundreds and hundreds of people said that to me, like, on one of my first podcast. He's like, you were so particular in your movements.

Like like, worried about perception. That's fascinating. Just from I I I'm just imp like, it makes sense that you would realize that by now, but I'm pretty impressed in hindsight that that was briefly after knowing each other. I did I did write a book called Six Minute X-ray, how to develop a full behavior profile in six minutes. I wanted to ask about that, but, guys, we do not have much time, unfortunately.

A question I ask, every guest, and you take your time on this, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received? This is gonna be corny, but I think it's the most powerful thing in the world. If you read every ancient text, whatever religion, the Nag Hammadi, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita, whatever you read, the most common phrase, including the Bible, the New Testament, the Old Testament, even the forbidden books of the bible like, the book of Timothy, and Thomas and, Judas, the most common phrase ever repeated in all of those texts, you know what it is, Do not fear. And every single ancient religious text is fear not or do not fear or some variation of that. Funny enough the King James version of the bible says do not fear 365 times.

And I think that's our biggest problem in life is like getting to fear is the opposite of love and every spiritual teaching, you know, that so almost all spiritual teachings teach that we only really have two basic emotions as humans, we have love and we have fear. And I think having a good life is getting out of that fear area and getting into like how can I just be open hearted all the time and just loving what's going on and be more in the love part? Well, the best advice I ever got was from ancient religious texts. Every religion ever. Yeah.

That's a good one. Well, everyone, this has been the, Jack Neil podcast. This is your guest, Chase Hughes. Thanks for coming on, man. Where can people find you?

You can just go to my system. You can go to my YouTube channel. It's just just under Chase Hughes or our website for all the training and stuff. It's called n c I dot university. Awesome.

Thanks, guys. Nice to meet you, man.